View Full Version : NAVY spice. How much honor do you have? I say'none."
To The hawk and Spektyr. If you are going to use spies then you may want to use a smarter one. This one is really stupid. He send it to one of our commander.
===== CaptainRog =====
Ok, welcome to the Oman. In Roger, and throughout the war I and other units in the other factions were working with The-Hawk and Spektyr, and their inteligence team. In other words, we were spies. Heres info on whats going on. The NAVY is almost through with TTW base, as a fleet is jumping in soon to take it our. Other remnants are moving through HoffersWake, Mwari, and Dagda attempting to link up with each other, especially at TTW HQ. Lets state this now. The NAVY is not dead. It can even still win this game with lots of care. theoreticly. What is needed is to misguide the Oman. False enemy calls,jumps, attacks, etc. Not firing on the NAVY and firing on Oman allies is a good start. Just because you are Oman now doesn't mean that you aren't still part of the NAVY tradition. Large numbers of Ex-NAVY pilots in the MCA are forming up to assist the NAVY counterparts. You can help as well. There have been few NAVY captures in the Oman, so no group is being made. Yet. As NAVY fall, they are quickly sapped into the resistance tree. If you want to, you can do so in the Oman. This is the last comm you will get from me.
:sour:
The Hawk and I have talked about this at great length awhile ago. This guy and his friends are of the opinion that doing the whole spy game makes the game more fun for them, and they were constantly sending (at least 2 times a turn!) information to both Hawk and I. This was not solicited and we couldn't get them to stop.
Furthermore, since there is absolutely no way to verify that the information is actually accurate, or where the spy's loyalty actually is, we made no tactical or strategic moves based on this information because for all we knew it was misinformation designed to lead us astray.
Yes, there was definitely a spy ring in operation. However, until now it was impossible to determine where the loyalty was and so the spy ring was in effect, useless because none of the information it gathered was used. We can't block comms in the game, so there's no way to stop someone intent on playing this little game. However, it was not the Navy's idea, and it was not endorsed by the Navy or anyone in it. Since the person in question professed loyalty to the Navy, the Hawk and I decided it was best to simply ignore them, rather than publically announce the presence and drag the Navy's reputation through the mud. Additionally, if this was a double agent, we didn't want them to think we were suspicious.
Yeah, this was a sloppy spy. I can tell you right now if I had any intention of playing with spies, they'd be a damn sight smarter than this. I don't think it's a good way to play the game, and neither does Hawk. FYI, Hawk is one of the 'cleanest' players I've ever met, almost to the point of tying his own hands with his honesty.
Don't let a few bad apples taint the reputation of such a fine group of pilots. The pilots of the Alliance Navy are great men and women and I'm damn proud to have flown with them.
Do you really expect us to believe you now?
Your action had brought shams to all NAVY pilots. You two could have done two things before we knew about this. If you really have any honor you could stop all this when it happen, but you two chose not to.
1. You two should have report CaptainRog and his spy’s friends to Wingee.
2. You could have post a message in the BB stated that you have reported their action to Wingee. This would had stop all spying all together.
I really feel sorry for all the NAVY pilots. They had fought bravely and only to be dishonor like this. :cry:
I agree with Hoa11 on that one. I have come across "spies" before and I have always told them. I dont care who your friend in the other faction is -keep the information to yourself or I will report you. Simple!!
In fact you did the opposite. Share it with everyone and we will make you feel important.
Look, I'm not going to entertain this stupid witch-hunt far beyond this reply.
I am (apparently) one of the few pilots playing this game that give other pilots the benefit of the doubt. I don't appoint myself judge, jury and tattle-tale. If I see someone doing something that is an exploitation of a bug (such as firing more than 5 times per turn) I'll report that.
However, there's enough Salem judges in this game already without me adding to the ranks of those screaming "Hey, it's a multi!" or "He's using outside comms!" If there's any possibility that the person ISN'T breaking the rules, I for one will give them the benefit of the doubt. For all I know, this guy was making everything up just to feel important or maybe just to see if he could make a bunch of people fly around in circles clockwise. I really have no freakin' clue exactly what's going on behind someone else's screen.
There was more than a few times earlier in the game when the Navy's enemies somehow managed to perfectly counter plans we had previously broadcast on All Friendlies. Yeah, we suspected we had spies, but we didn't complain on the BB about it, we didn't call in Wingee to hunt them down and kill them and their mammalian pets. We just moved our strategy discussions off All Friendlies. This is my first full game played, I simply assumed that every faction had disgruntled pilots in it that leaked information to the others, because we suspected we had spies leaking our information to others, and then we suddenly had some guy broadcasting other factions' plans on our comms. We told him to stop using All Friendlies and just send the information to me or Hawk because it was disrupting our faction, and it was a heck of a lot of spam. But the simple fact is that we had no way to determine if this guy was telling the truth, and if he was exactly how he got the info. Enemy pilots CAN communicate with each other with ingame comms -- taunts. Now what if a group of people pre-determined a 'code' with those taunts? If I can think of it, other people can too. Would that be against the rules? Not that I know of. Is it in the 'spirit of the game'? IMHO, no, but I can see how other people would disagree.
You reap what you sow. If you want to be an 'evil' faction leader and use information like this, well that's your choice and you have to live with it. This guy was disrupting our comms with messages containing information of questionable accuracy and source with 'tactical advice' that could be mistaken for orders. So we 're-routed' it off All Friendlies and straight to Hawk and me. We gave this guy a 'job' so he'd be happy and not be a pain in our backside. And quite frankly we didn't want him ticked off at us because we didn't feel we could trust the morals of certain other FC's were he to switch loyalties.
But the facts really boil down to this: 1. We couldn't be sure he was doing anything beyond faking information for unknown reasons. 2. We couldn't be sure that if he information was accurate that it was being obtained through illegal means. 3. We didn't want him broadcasting it on open comms and confusing our pilots. 4. The Hawk is the absolute last person in this game who would break any rule, or violate any moral. (Remember, this is the guy who feels it's dishonorable to break a NAP without notifying you beforehand.) 5. I was only a squadron commander and sometimes sector commander -- I was never in a position to take advantage of this 'spy info' even if I believed it. I still had to follow Hawk's orders.
So you think we should've run off and told on him. Fine. If that's what you think is the right thing to do, then you do that when situations like this arise. However, after we discussed it Hawk and I decided that this guy was harmless so long as he wasn't disrupting the Navy comms. We felt that humoring him, giving him a fictional 'top secret' job as a spy and then just tossing his reports out the airlock would keep him happy, let the game be fun for him, and not screw it up for anyone else.
This is a simple difference in opinion on how to handle the situation. We kept one Navy pilot happy and the only danger he posed to our enemies was his guns. His 'spy work' did nothing more than make him feel important, as the reports were normally deleted by me without even reading them. I didn't need to be reading that information and then spending the next few hours trying to decide if he was telling the truth or not. It simply wasn't worth the worry. If you feel that it's important to ruin the game of anyone that might be cheating, well go ahead. That's your right.
Though if EoCo turns into a Nazi state where the mere suspicion of immoral activity warrants the firing squad, I would imagine there would be a sharp decline in active players. In every game there will be people that find ways to cheat. Also there will always be people that find ingenious ways to accomplish things previously only possible by cheating. Treating both types the same certainly doesn't reward creative thinking... and that creative mind just might be in your faction.
That in a nutshell is why I feel that if there is not conclusive proof of wrong-doing, and there is no harm to anyone else's game that there is no reason to alert the authorities to some guy who's just trying to have fun.
I mean, this guy wasn't hurting anyone because his actions were being ignored. He was happy because he felt important and useful. The only way to prove he was cheating would have been to cheat myself, and check his info with outside comms or a multi.
So we decided to let him have his fun, and to let everyone else have theirs as well. Don't point the finger accusingly at Hawk and me. Instead extend your hand and thank us for not listening to what apparantly could have been a very useful spy and ruined the game for everyone.
Now if you can somehow prove this guy is violating rules, then I'll personally report him to Wingee. But until then I'm going to stick to my opinion that Hawk and I took the best action.
Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
Gandalf_uk
13-02-2002, 17:28
Even more info to bury the hawk
Did you know the Hawk calls himself the eyes of the E.O. C. the reason he calls himself that is because he had Spies in every faction. My brother was in an assination squad and any time he needed a name of of an F.C he would ask the Hawk and the the Hawk would give it to him. Now he is acting all Innocent when he has been cheating all along. We have known all along but it is only that the proof came out.
sorce of info Classified.
O.I.N.G
LOL, that message was posted to every Omans just a while back. The whole statement was a load of cr*p and it still is. I mean I was in the Navy inner circle practically for the whole game and rest assured, I didn't get any messages from anyone which would have indicated as what each and every faction were doing.
So please people stop this thread now, before it escalates any further. Now it seems that people can just come up with any accusations and them throw them against Hawk. This conversation is fruitless. Even if/when Hawk got info from spy who's motives to me are unlcear, Spektyrs message up there should clear that one, he didn't share his info with the rest of the command staff. And since we made decicions together, those spy reports didn't influense the rest of us since we didn't know about them and thus made our decicions solely by analyzing scans and map and ofcourse common sense.
Sheesh... some people just can't give up character assassination even when they're out of ammunition.
Look, I'm Oman now... and no I'm not changing my Avatar. I will follow my Navy training and follow the orders of those who are in command of me (The Oman), but I'm going to keep my Navy avatar here until G4.
But the point is, that Gandalf can try to continue his character assassination of The Hawk and I here, but he's either ignoring or intentionally leaving out the minor fact that about half a dozen people have piped up IN THE OMAN, and said that The Hawk is the personification of fair play. Hell, you could call him Mr. Squeeky Clean.
Hawk calls himself "The Eyes of EOC". Whoop-de-freakin'-do.
I call myself "Spektyr", "The Spektyr", and "The Ghost Who Walks".
However, I am not undead. I am a corporeal being. Guess what... Spektyr isn't even my real life name!
You wanna know how he knew who the FC's were? I told him. I get BORED playing this game 18hrs a day because I have no life. (no job, no girl, no money) Call me pathetic, I don't care, but if you read the top 200 pilots Ranking 50+ times per turn for a couple dozen turns and track who's online, when, and for how long... DUH! FC's are online longer than almost anybody else! (There's other data I collected as well, can't give out all my secrets, but they're all analyzing data available to every pilot in the game.) However, I don't recommend trying to analyze that much data without a LOT of spare time, knowledge of databases, and enough caffeine to kill a horse.
I don't think I'll be doing it again anytime soon. Also for the record, it isn't a flawless method. I was wrong about the Oman FC for about 30 turns before something someone here dispelled my theory and I had to reanalyze my data. (What isn't said often says more than what is.)
Okay that's it. I'm done with this. I've already explained a hell of a lot more than I wanted to.
If anyone else feels the need to slander The Hawk, why don't you send me a private message first. That way I can debunk your 'evidence' privately instead of proving you wrong in public.
Gandalf_uk
13-02-2002, 20:47
Im sorry if the hawk was as good as u say why did he not
1. report them to wingee
2. message the other FC and tell them who they were so they could be cut out of comms
Its a very easy thing to do
Let's practice our reading.
The answer to number 1 is already on this thread. The answer to number 2 is simple, we only knew the one guy in our faction's name, and we had him under control.
Or here's an even better idea. How about you stop beating a dead horse and let a non-issue die?
Gandalf_uk
13-02-2002, 23:37
No i whont let it lie because you have the cheek to call everyone in the Oman dishonarabul for attacking you eventhough we plaed by the rules and your using Damm spy's
Have you failed to notice you're the sole voice left crying 'foul'? It's because everyone else has listened. They may not have agreed with the way the problem was solved, but the at least tried to understand it.
We did not 'use' spies. We ignored spies. Comprende?
Show me what rule this spy broke. Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the rule was broken by this person. Then and only then will I report him or anyone else in the future.
I will not partake in 'witch-hunts'. Call it personal history, I lost a lot of my ancestors to real witch hunts.
I find it reprehensible to accuse someone of a crime based on suspicion. I require EVIDENCE. Suspicion only grants a person a position on my "Not to be trusted" list, just like this person.
Crucify whomever you feel like, you have to live with your actions. But do NOT condemn me for not seeking to convict someone of a crime I cannot prove. It is not within my nature to do such a thing.
Too many of my people were burned at the stake simply because other people believed they worshiped the devil. They did not seek to understand. They did not give them the benefit of the doubt.
They just built a fire. I won't.
Gandalf_uk
13-02-2002, 23:55
all the evidance i need is that you have or had the messages and to say you total ignored what he said must be a blatent lie. even if it was unintenchanal the information you had would have or could have given you an edge if you didn't condone what he they were doing you should have reported him including the messages that u recived his account could than have been froze and that would have been the end of it and why is it only when someone found you out are you trying to defend what was done you can not preach one thing and do another and i have kept argueing coz i belive im right this was a cheeting to the highest degree if you came out and told people at the beging i would proberly have belived you but agter being found out and then trying to cover it up im sorry but i don't belive what you say.
What evidence do you have that we could have had at that time that would prove that he was not simply a rogue attempting to disrupt our faction by making up fake spy reports?
If he were simply trying to send fake reports to mess us up, he's not breaking any rules. He's just a rogue.
That is a reasonable doubt. That is all the reason I need to feel justified in not reporting his actions. All people have a right to play this game if they follow the rules, regardless of how disruptive or annoying they might be. I respect those rights.
I would ask that you behave in an adult-enough manner to allow me the right to act on my moral code as I see fit. I do not attempt to impose my morals on you. If you feel you are morally obligated to report someone for a violation of the rules, go ahead. Do not lecture me on my moral code as you not only do not understand it, but you have made no effort to try. Do not expect me to adhere to your moral code, I have no obligation to.
It is a simple solution to agree to disagree. Several others have the intelligence to understand and apply this concept. Two people do not have to agree on everything, but that doesn't mean they must fight about what they disagree on. We don't agree, leave it at that. Form your opinions of me as you will.
I am now fed up with attempting to explain my point of view in a manner that you will understand as it is clear to me you make no effort to.
Continue this argument only if you feel like arguing with yourself.
Gandalf_uk
14-02-2002, 00:28
do not insult my inteligance by just dismissing me as some idiet that just whants to argue. i ahve not tried to lecture you on moral but just told you to take a look at your argument from another point of view. lets say if information came out that i had someone sending me information on a faction would you belive me if i told you what you have told me i think not. so why should i tell you. reporting something to wingee doen't mean that player will be affeted untill wingee has looked into it and seen if he has broken the rules so your argument has no strutcher at all. i will explane this for you
you didn't report him coz all he was, was a anoying you on the comms well you could have done what you say you did aswell as teling wingee if you had done this i would agree with you but all you are doing is trying to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen i have nothing against you and the hawk more the way you whent to solving the problem IMO was wrong you could have asked who he was getting the information off and informed the other FC you didn't you could have told wingee youd didn't you could have posted on the BB you didn't what i whant to understand is why you did none of these hoping it would go away when there were alot of things you could have done that wouldn't have effected that player??
Spektyre, Hawk... next time, you might try my approach.
First time they tell me, I warn them, telling them that a repeat will result in their being reported.
I don't get many repeat offenders... :)
I'm always suspicious of anyone who is willing to spy in one direction though- what's to stop them going the other way? :(
Originally posted by Celt
Oh shut up bs'ing hoa...
I can not seem to understand your message. Did you thing that I were BS? If you read my post and Spektyr post then you should know that I had post is the true and not bs'ing.
Originally posted by Spektyr
Have you failed to notice you're the sole voice left crying 'foul'? It's because everyone else has listened. They may not have agreed with the way the problem was solved, but the at least tried to understand it.
We did not 'use' spies. We ignored spies. Comprende?
Show me what rule this spy broke. Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the rule was broken by this person. Then and only then will I report him or anyone else in the future.
I will not partake in 'witch-hunts'. Call it personal history, I lost a lot of my ancestors to real witch hunts.
I find it reprehensible to accuse someone of a crime based on suspicion. I require EVIDENCE. Suspicion only grants a person a position on my "Not to be trusted" list, just like this person.
Crucify whomever you feel like, you have to live with your actions. But do NOT condemn me for not seeking to convict someone of a crime I cannot prove. It is not within my nature to do such a thing.
Too many of my people were burned at the stake simply because other people believed they worshiped the devil. They did not seek to understand. They did not give them the benefit of the doubt.
They just built a fire. I won't.
Gandalf were not the only person that wanted answer. And the evidence are in CaptainRog message on this BB and also in the Oman COMM: you had seen his message in the Oman Comm: yourself that should be enough prove there. You should have known by now, that the way you try to solve this spy problem was the wrong way. If you were only try to warn them first and if happen again then do report them. I am sure we would not have this post at all, but you didn’t and you had to explain yourself. I personally does not buy your explanation, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt
Originally posted by BFalcon
Spektyre, Hawk... next time, you might try my approach.
First time they tell me, I warn them, telling them that a repeat will result in their being reported.
I don't get many repeat offenders... :)
I'm always suspicious of anyone who is willing to spy in one direction though- what's to stop them going the other way? :(
I think you got this one down to the point. Now if all FC would do this then it would help cut down on the spy and multi to a low number in this game and the next one.
It seems that people are missing the point here. The reason Spektyr didn't report the spy was, that he wasn't sure he was a spy. Just because somebody tells some info about other faction, doesn't mean he is a spy. He could be making all the things from his head and try to disrupt the operation of the faction.
*Now* we know that he was actually a spy but how could have Spektyr known then when he was sending his malicious messages that he indeed is a spy? The only way he could have found that out is to sign up a second account and join the Omans which would have been wrong.
So you are blaming him for not reporting a spy. That goes against his moral code to blame someone without proof and thus he didn't report him since he wasn't sure. Instead he ignored his messages and let that guy happily do whatever it is that he was doing.
Getting somebody cought from spying is very very difficult, if you wan't explicit proof. I mean I have RL friends in other factions, sometimes we discuss what's happening in the game and sometimes one of them accidentially blurt out something they shouldn't. Also I could easily become a spy myself. I have access to dozens of computers and thus would have many IP's in which to log in to spy. yet I don't do that since that would be wrong and would take all the fun out of the game from myself and all those who'd enjoy this game fairly. Now that I'm oman, I could also start feeding your FC a malicicous information about other factions, which would all come from just my imagination. Sure thing our FC would report me, but Wingee wouldn't find any wrong doings from my part and thus I could continue to transmit my "info" and there would be nothing our FC could do about since here isn't an ignore option, which is a bit shame if you ask me.
Now I say we let thes issue aside and concentrate on the future. There are still many challienges to conquer and many battles to fight which won't be affected in any way by this incident, or shouldn't be affected.
2potscreama
14-02-2002, 11:55
You know, I recognise all the names that have posted on this thread thus far.
And to be honest, I would have expected better from all of you.
If I was in Spektyrs position I would have done the same thing.
Given the guy a fake job to shut him up.
This discussion has stretched on far too long.
Give it a rest. Especially with the "honor" thing. Just play the sodding game and stop moaning.
ThePlayer
14-02-2002, 18:08
Hoa11 I'm actually ashamed of you. You know me as an honest clean player - my loyalty to The-Hawk never varied during the game because I knew he was clean. If he'd been cheating, do YOU think I'd risk my rank 10 Megafrieghter for him? Come on, you know how pathetic I was last game, running away to save my ship. To the point of sacrificing my ship to save his ***, I was loyal.
Many of you think loyalty is nothing in this game; I tell you it is everything. If you do not trust and support your fellow pilots, you can't win. Well, I trusted The-Hawk and still do, and always will, because I know he's WAY better at being honest than you people.
As for some sad people who like to think they're important? Forget them. They're useless, sad individuals, much like the people I always ordered the RavenWing to kill. One example of this was Tallpaul, in the Alliance Navy. I don't know which legion planted him there but all he tried to do was cause disruption - and eventually he got himself added to the "hit" list.
For goodness' sake grow up people. You have nothing to base this on except a comm.
ThePlayer
RavenWing Legend
Originally posted by hoa11
can not seem to understand your message. Did you thing that I were BS? If you read my post and Spektyr post then you should know that I had post is the true and not bs'ing.
Your comments on honour and morals(?) were bull**** and pointless and most of all moot.
{Please watch your language - SS}
The_Hawk
18-02-2002, 12:32
To The hawk and Spektyr. If you are going to use spies then you may want to use a smarter one. This one is really stupid. He send it to one of our commander.
===== CaptainRog =====
Ok, welcome to the Oman. In Roger, and throughout the war I and other units in the other factions were working with The-Hawk and Spektyr, and their inteligence team. In other words, we were spies. Heres info on whats going on. The NAVY is almost through with TTW base, as a fleet is jumping in soon to take it our. Other remnants are moving through HoffersWake, Mwari, and Dagda attempting to link up with each other, especially at TTW HQ. Lets state this now. The NAVY is not dead. It can even still win this game with lots of care. theoreticly. What is needed is to misguide the Oman. False enemy calls,jumps, attacks, etc. Not firing on the NAVY and firing on Oman allies is a good start. Just because you are Oman now doesn't mean that you aren't still part of the NAVY tradition. Large numbers of Ex-NAVY pilots in the MCA are forming up to assist the NAVY counterparts. You can help as well. There have been few NAVY captures in the Oman, so no group is being made. Yet. As NAVY fall, they are quickly sapped into the resistance tree. If you want to, you can do so in the Oman. This is the last comm you will get from me.
========The-Hawk=========
Do you know when I first saw this? The Oman FC showed to me about 6 turns before I did a suicide into to the TTW base.I was in Dagda Alpha you can count the amount of turns to get to Eureka HQ. The Oman FC and The TTW FC were extremely pi$$ed and called me every four letter word in the book.And I don't blame them one bit. But here are some facts that I would like to share with you gentlemen:
1. I had never heard of this guy before receiving the Oman's message that contained it.
2. The guy in the Navy that Spektyr is talking about called himself Steel Viper.
3. When 5 Viper_-_-_-_ ships showed up they were all reported to Wingee. And he suspended the accounts then reactivated them after investigating. Case closed .
4. I never authorized him to use his "operatives" to say what they did nor was it true as Spektyr said we humored him and tossed his comms.
5. I did receive one message from him telling me what he had done which I read AFTER I read the above comm sent by the Oman FC which was why I commited my remaining fleet to die.
6. If this had happened to you what would you have done report him? we did that. I didn't know any of the other names you and they say I did. Plus the worst of it happened AFTER the base was destroyed and I was on the run.
==========The_Hawk=======
Some facts about me :
1. The Eyes of EOC is because of two reasons The extrordinary sharp vision of a hawk and because I have been playing this game since the first tick of the beta test till now.
2. I've been an FC three times and made a lot of friends some of which share snippets of info with me.These are not spies they are just gamers.
3. When my wife wanted to play I bowed out because I was Navy and she was Oman. She had to quit because of her father getting ill , That is where Galaxina of G1 died with me at the helm. We never have played unless we are on the same team.
4. My daughter started playing in late G1 .She did not play G2. And in G3 she was MCA. This also will never happen again. We will all play on the same team or not play at all.
5. As far as knowing the FC's? The League and The Maas were allies The friends that told me did not think it would hurt the game. The MCA my daughter told me (the reason for the same team rule) And I had no idea who the TTW or the Oman FC's were contrary to popular belief until very late in the game for me.
6. Finally I would like to say that these "Spies" completely ruined the game for me and I wrote an public statement denouncing these guys and telling all the ex-navy to straighten up and fly right that this was just a game and that they needed to be loyal to their new factions . I SENT THIS TO EVERY FC TO POST ON ALL FRIENDLIES. Then headed straight for the TTW HQ to die dragging the last of the Navy ships with me.
Maybe you don't really know how hard that was for me to do. I wanted so much to have the entire Galaxy chasing me like hounds after a fox eluding you right and left and going muwhahahaha in your faces but how could I? This wasn't my fault my only crime was to inspire my faction to believe in themselves and working together as a team and the reward was loyality and that is what the spies exploited insuring my demise and having to leave the game disheartened and hated by those who didn't understand. I am deeply affected by this and believe me I will never handle "spies" the way I did this time . I don't even think my friends will be offering me any information anymore either and that's just fine because I don't want it.
oh and one last thing. It's turn 274 and the Navy is still in the lead.
warmaker
22-02-2002, 09:04
Originally posted by ThePlayer
Hoa11 I'm actually ashamed of you. You know me as an honest clean player - my loyalty to The-Hawk never varied during the game because I knew he was clean. If he'd been cheating, do YOU think I'd risk my rank 10 Megafrieghter for him? Come on, you know how pathetic I was last game, running away to save my ship. To the point of sacrificing my ship to save his ***, I was loyal.
Many of you think loyalty is nothing in this game; I tell you it is everything. If you do not trust and support your fellow pilots, you can't win. Well, I trusted The-Hawk and still do, and always will, because I know he's WAY better at being honest than you people.
You are so right. I know The-Hawk to be a good honest player and I know that he would rather quit the game than use spies and stuff. I've been loyal to The-Hawk since he was Galaxina in game1. He never cheated as FC in game1 and he never cheated in game2.
I think that there are more people who would say good about him than bad. Even if they weren't Navy in game3.
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