Who do you shoot first?

[captcoyote]

My experience is that there are different philosophies on who you should shoot first in a major confrontation. Some say to simply shoot at the first person on the top of the list. Some say to take out the biggest repair ship on top of the list. Some say to take out the biggest attack ship on top of the list. Some actually work their way from about level 6 and work their way up? Some actually pick on the little guys just to beef up their kill scores. What is your opnion and why?

[Hookem]

None, because you shouldn't shoot first. In a major confict I would do 2 piracys to see if i could get a gatt or seekers. Also I would look to see whos sheilds are droping because others are shooting them and then help to take that person down.

[HardEyes]

we have someone who names target in any sector, somekind of sectorcommander.. he uses his experience to choose the ones to attack. reasons for being target:

being active (dangerous ships shall be eliminated first)
being inactive(you can't retreat, or do piracy and so on)
being damaged(so we don't need many shoots to kill you)
being not damaged(this case you may waste your moves in early t-15, and your repairs don't expect you being target..)
being highlevel (so our lowlevel may level up)
being lowlevel(easy target)
being known enemy(because they often lead the attack, their kill demoralize the other ships)
being no known enemy(and so perhaps an easy kill)
being accused as multi (waffles, just for being multi)

and so on.. often you calculate the damage you can made this turn (and in t+5) and so chooses the highest level ship you can kill. sometimes you just want to force the enemy to retreat and so shoot many down to 50% instead of killing one or two...

it strongly depends on situation whom to choose..

HardEyes

[Hamsterlord]

None, because you shouldn't shoot first. In a major confict I would do 2 piracys to see if i could get a gatt or seekers. Also I would look to see whos sheilds are droping because others are shooting them and then help to take that person down.


Yes, but I disagree on order... I say wait till the end of the turn, then do 3 normal attacks on the primary target, and then, depending on the sector (some are better than others for piracy), do either 1 attack and 1 piracy, or 2 piracy.

[Kristof]

Top attack ship and priority for the veterans because they are usually calling the targets. Also those that do the most damage to our ships are better targets (because high combat means low piloting)

[Spektyr]

It varies every turn you're fighting... the combat strategy of the opponent, they're combat/repair ratio, whether you're attacking or defending...

There really are limitless variables that go into target selection, and a commander may consider as many or as few of them as he/she wants to.

For instance, when fighting one jump from an enemy HQ, killing a r4 or lower ship is pretty much a waste of turns... it will just be right back next turn as r1. Farther from their base, it might be a worthwhile target simply to thin the enemy ranks. (losing 3 r4-7 ships will scare an enemy more than just losing 1 r10.)

[captcoyote]

I understand that there are a many variables, and I am assuming that a pilot will wait for the right time to shoot. I also understand that a pilot may not want to shoot, but would rather do some piracy first. What I am trying to get at here is the "general rule." In other words, when the time comes to finally shoot, who do YOU think should be shot first (as a general rule)? The reason I ask this is because, when I was with the Third Way in game 2 we had the general rule that a person should always shoot at the top repair ship and work his way down. Then in game 3 I joined the Navy, and in one instance while following a squad leader (that everyone thought was famous, but I had never heard of), I found that his rule was to shoot at level 6 ships and work your way up. Then in my present faction that rule changed again (though I won't say how because that may give away some of our factions secrets).

I also recognize that a person is usually designated to call the shots, but I am YOU: If YOU were the one calling the shots - what would be YOUR priority (as a general rule)?

[tekno monik]

I would shoot at whoever I'm ordered to shoot at....

[Spektyr]

I think the reason you're not hearing the answers you want is that the question can't be answered simply.

Targeting lvl 6 ships and working your way up is a good tactic for base defense situations... you can quickly reduce the number of ships able to do significant damage to your base.

Targeting repairships from top to bottom is a solid tactic when your enemy has a solid force of active repairships. (A force with dedicated, active repairships can be very difficult to score kills against, thus reducing their repairship fleet size results in faster combat ship kills later.)

It's just very difficult to say what the best target is in general. It depends so much on what your fleet and the opposing fleet is made up of, and how active the ships are. A good inactive target, a target with some damage, the guy who fired early... there's just too many things that contribute turn by turn to which target is likely to get picked. Sometimes it might even be a lower level target because many of of your ships are inactive and you can't be sure to score a high-level kill.

[kudos]

I shoot the Decoys first chance I get, and when i'm SC I order everyone who listens to Shoot the Damn Decoys !! How do I know they're Decoys?? I was a Decoy once myself, we know stuff...
those Decoys can be deadly sitting in your sector eh guys...?
kill 'em all !! Get them outa my Sky!!
Originally posted by tekno monik
I would shoot at whoever I'm ordered to shoot at....
^^chocchip cookie goes to that man there^^
and general answer..? there ain't no general answer, too many different situations in EoCo....
=)

[kudos]

Poll Edited, new option added, wanna change your vote let me know.. =)

ph33r t3h p0w3r 0f m0d !!

=)

[Hamsterlord]

Yeah, change my vote to Follows Orders. :) Thanks for adding that one.

[captcoyote]

Originally posted by Spektyr
I think the reason you're not hearing the answers you want is that the question can't be answered simply.
Actually I am hearing the answers I want. Besides a simple poll I wanted to get some discussion on the reasons why people at certain targets. Quite frankly there is one category that kudos missed, that I was thinking of adding myself: I shoot at my enemies first! (Or did I add that?) What I did not appreciate as an addition to the poll was: I just follow orders. That is a cop out. I was once asked by a political science professor to decide on the issue of abortion. I was a stupid Freshman and simply responded that this was primarily an issue for the courts. It was then that he asked me, well what would you decide if you were the judge? Eventually a person playing this game has to decide for himself who he wants to shoot at. Sometimes there is no one to tell you the target, you have to decide for yourself. On what do you base that decision on? I think there are some basic reasons for these decisions. I think this discussion will ultimately create better pilots.

[Spektyr]

Well, if our goal here is to get a discussion going to develop better pilots by providing a 'General Rule of Targeting'.... well, we're going have a vastly innaccurate rule.

Here's my ***** at it:

If you haven't received orders and have to pick a target (and you can't track more than one possible variable in your brain), follow these simple instructions:

Point da gun-type-thingies at da biggest thing on da enemy list and pull da trigger till it stops shooting.

Simple enough?

Of course you're totally screwed if that target has an LDA... because following that rule of thumb has pilots shooting all five shots at a target they can't damage. That's the problem: A general rule doesn't work very well in a dynamic situation.

[captcoyote]

Spektyr, I have come to the conclusion, a long time ago (like when we were both in the Navy) that we just don't communicate very well with one another. No, I am not trying to create a "general rule". I am simply encouraging discussion on shooting. This, again, was spurred by my experience in game 2 with the Third Way. It was a general rule when I was there, in that game, that you always started with the top repairship and worked your way down. Since that time I have come across different philosophies with regard to shooting strategies. As you do point out, there are a lot of different situations, and different leaders come up with their reasons for calling out different shots. As we have already seen, we have people who only want to follow orders. "Tell me who to shoot." Maybe we need more discussion so that people can start to figure this out for themselves. (That was a "maybe".)

[Spektyr]

I agree that it would be a good thing for more people to know how to pick the right targets, but in many cases there's more than one good target. I would be concerned that if everyone felt they were an expert on target selection, they might all do their own thing, destroying the concentrated fire effect required to produce fast, effective kills.

That being said, I'll volunteer to start a list of the factors that should be considered when selecting targets.

1. Activity level. It's important to have an estimate of how active your forces are, and how active the enemy forces are, particularly their repairships. If the target ship is less active, it will be an easier kill. Should your ships fire early, or fail to complete the kill in the T+5 window (if you're using it), a less active ship may remain long enough to be destroyed.

2. Know your damage capabilities. This ties in with knowing the activity level of your ships. You need to have a basic idea of how much damage the fleet can put out, and be sure not to select a primary target stronger than that damage. It's best to select a target you can be sure of destroying, and a second target for roll-over damage. Obviously if your fleet is capable of two or more kills per turn, this should be adjusted. Always call 1 more target than you can kill, and pick targets that are as big as you can be certain of killing, and not any bigger.

3. Combat vs. Repairship. You might target combat ships first if there are few repairships to fix them, or if there's relatively few combat ships in their fleet compared to yours. Other times to kill combat ships first is anytime the repairships don't pose a significant threat or a worthy kill, when a combat ship is a particularly juicy target (low shields, moved early, etc). Repairships are particularly demoralizing for the enemy fleet when lost. Capital ships have a nearly useless self-repair and if badly damaged they have to jump to a safe sector to find a repairship if there aren't any left. Effectively suppressing the levels of either combat ships or repairships can cripple a fleet. Since repairships are almost always lower in total number than combat ships, they are typically the target of choice.

4. Get the Logs. As much as possible, it is important to get the people in your fleet to broadcast the logs of any enemy fire they receive each turn. This can suddenly present you with good targets that cannot jump to safety should they come under early fire, allowing your fleet to fire earlier in the turn. This is especially effective for the pilots who can't be online at the end of the turn, allowing them to fire at the main target of the fleet without fear of scaring them off.

5. Watch the scores. This is certainly not a fun thing to do. By watching the scores of the enemy fleet you can determine when they have fired or repaired, as their score will normally go up. This is the most certain way to determine if a repairship has moved that turn, and will allow you to see when combat ships shoot at a ship in your fleet that is not active to broadcast the logs.

6. Target Leadership. Difficult to do with any certainty, but if you are able to guess who the leadership in an enemy fleet is, targeting these ships in particular can have two positive effects (and one negative.) First, it can demoralize the enemy pilots to see their commanding officers blown from space. Second, it is particularly difficult to effectively command a fleet in a different sector than you are in. Finally, the negative effect is that this can really upset the enemy commanders, leading them to pursue your fleet with fanatical vengence.

7. Fleet Commander. Duh, the enemy FC is always a primary target if they have mistakenly given away their identity.


There's some basics... I'm sure there's stuff I haven't thought of.

[kudos]

Originally posted by captcoyote
What I did not appreciate as an addition to the poll was: I just follow orders. That is a cop out.
nope, not a cop out. lets quote the whole option if we're goin to discuss (or dis) it...
I Follow Orders, not 'cos i've no brain, just 'cos it makes sense
now due to not wanting to take up loads of space in the voting options, you have to cut down the options to a few words. Perhaps I should have added.. "cos it makes sense... to work as a team, concentrating all available fire on pre-nominated targets - which must be nominated by one person (not necessarily someone better or wiser than me or other ppl present) because any more ppl involved in the nominating process would just cause confusion and pilots to not bother shooting in concert, leading them to spread their fire over a number of targets causing no real damage to the enemy fleet. also - some good SC's will bother to check fire reports, rankings, decoy lists etc in order to find the most worthy target for destruction, some even going so far as to fire at the nominated target first to confirm that they have no LDA.

oh, theres probly more reasons, like discipline is good in this game, but it just wouldn't all fit in the option line... I thought "'cos it makes sense" would infer enough info to those who understand, and 7 ppl have already voted for it...

btw: abortion is a highly moral issue, playing this game, and who you shoot at aren't - comparing the two just doesn't work....

[captcoyote]

Okay Kudos. You are still on a rampage from tearing into the Hawk. I really agree with just about everything you said. In fact to a great extent I prefer to simply follow orders too. I hate calling out the target list. If for some reason I call out a dud, everybody seems to jump on your case! However (my point) is that there are times when you DO have to make a decision. I wanted to know more about what goes into the thought process when a person finally has to decide - "who should I shoot at?" Spektyr just gave some very instructive thought processes that I think others could learn from. This is what I am really after.