View Full Version : Official word from Atari UK
roadrash
03-10-2006, 15:19
People,
Just a quick word from the UK offices to let you know that we are aware of the problems with the Toolset download, and that we are *not* ignoring them.
We are on the case, and looking to get all the queries that people have raised answered.
We are operating under the rather frustrating constraints of the Toolset download services being run from the US, with all the complications that the time differences entails..
I will endeavour to keep everyone informed as soon as we get answers.
On behalf of Atari UK.
No offence but your apology isnt good enough, you tried to blame it on some power outage...which is NOT the cause of the problem. the problem is bad coding and planning which you refuse to admit.
1) you should have never used the countdown timer based on the persons LOCAL clock. as many had much issues with that...with it looping endlessly which could have been avoided if you had tested it before hand.
2). the problem the first night is not due to a "power outtage" but due to poorly done sql script and database management. the problem is you didnt give the right permissions or what to the database it seems and thats what the real issue was. othewrise if it was the power outage tthat was the problem it would read a "page not found " error. which would mean severs were down.
3). you offered only ONE FTP site on earth to let over 1,000 users try to download the files at once... this was very poor doings...any sane person would have known that if you had a ton of people trying to download files from one location only that it would cause problems
4) the keycodes are worthleses: the ftp site is unrestricted anyone can download the files if they know the site location... a poster on the offical nw2 site forums stated that "well we shoudnt download it even if its avaible" what the heck does that mean? sure we can....its an atari site and its basically open to the public ..you cant blame it on the users the security of your website is YOUR responciblity ...having it avaible for EVERYONE to download regardless of the keycode or not in the ftp is very very unprofessonal.
this is shown as a error and negliect on Ataris part NOT based on some silly power outage...while may have caused some problems was NOT the source of this problem in the first place.
i think in order for you to restore faith and respect from your customers you should have admitted that the problems were because of unprofessonalism and not because of some stupid power outage or "technical difficulties". i am sorry but that is just in my opinion bs.
now then can you explain those issues? point by point? no of course n
the fact that you offer a small little paragraph responce instead of a well written longer post shows again that you really dont seem to care ...its all excuses.
i think i and many others make ourselves clear about the real issues here. and you just dont want to step up to the plate and admit it.
we all make mistakes sure...but the biggest thing is to admit when we are wrong...and then only then...can we learn from them.
i will also be fowarding this in email to the beta admin's too because thats the only actual atari email thats been posted here.
and i believe you all need to hear what we are trying to say.
Umm, I do not want to be rude or so but..
This is how I see this thing:
Sure, Atari made some mistakes but.
They wanted us to have free (I know, some of you pay for it) toolset before game is out.
So, now some fellows ***** it but question is. What they can do about it? I seriously doubt that even normal NWN1 player who have actually played ALL addons and so start to making his / hers own PW / module.
Atari "promised" to give us free toolset before game is out (about 1 month before). Now I and others have it. They are now actually using more then 1 FTP (but yes, 1 source where to download for everyone in europe is kind of.. ..not enough).
Sure, I admid and I am 110% sure that Atari did not just want to be nice and help community. This was made for publicity and raise amount of peoples who buy a game (hey, this is kind of free hype after all. If someone is willing to wait for new screenshot, new item or new toolset and tell about for all they friends it is [in theory] really good and nearly free commercial for product).
But most important thing for me and I bet most of us who actually will use this toolset is: we have it, we can now start building new items, our modules or pw's and make something ready before game even ships (ok, we can not make PW or module ready but atleast we can start something)
Allso I am really sure that Atari + Obsidian and all these shops where peoples have been calling allready know this did not go out as planned. So there is no point for me to try make some poor summer assistant life more miserable for sending e-mail for them or so. (I bet we all know that Hasbro who owns Atari + wizard of the coast & D&D do not really care or even get your e-mail)
BlackHawk01x
03-10-2006, 22:19
I don't try to get me into discussions since I'm waiting for the official info about all that, but just one thing to Taneli:
The presale'toolset was never meant to be 'free', just for these who paid/prepaid for it, that I do not call 'free', it ended in a free toolset yes, but that's becuase a person posted a link to the ftp-server without being allowed to and that made it free but not meant to be so anyways.
Just to clear that up *smiles* Free from beginning would have been without any codes needed just a link and no need for a code-check-website.
Umm, I do not want to be rude or so but..
This is how I see this thing:
Sure, Atari made some mistakes but.
They wanted us to have free (I know, some of you pay for it) toolset before game is out.
So, now some fellows ***** it but question is. What they can do about it? I seriously doubt that even normal NWN1 player who have actually played ALL addons and so start to making his / hers own PW / module.
Atari "promised" to give us free toolset before game is out (about 1 month before). Now I and others have it. They are now actually using more then 1 FTP (but yes, 1 source where to download for everyone in europe is kind of.. ..not enough).
Sure, I admid and I am 110% sure that Atari did not just want to be nice and help community. This was made for publicity and raise amount of peoples who buy a game (hey, this is kind of free hype after all. If someone is willing to wait for new screenshot, new item or new toolset and tell about for all they friends it is [in theory] really good and nearly free commercial for product).
But most important thing for me and I bet most of us who actually will use this toolset is: we have it, we can now start building new items, our modules or pw's and make something ready before game even ships (ok, we can not make PW or module ready but atleast we can start something)
Allso I am really sure that Atari + Obsidian and all these shops where peoples have been calling allready know this did not go out as planned. So there is no point for me to try make some poor summer assistant life more miserable for sending e-mail for them or so. (I bet we all know that Hasbro who owns Atari + wizard of the coast & D&D do not really care or even get your e-mail)
You refered to it as *free* numerous times there. It isnt for everyone due to an additional cost to purchase for some. But even without this cost you still were told you had to preorder to get this...and doing something to get something is not getting something free. Same as the buy one get one free deals...you still have to buy 1 lol...the other is not *free* .
whoops wrong thread...sorry bout that.
2). the problem the first night is not due to a "power outtage" but due to poorly done sql script and database management. the problem is you didnt give the right permissions or what to the database it seems and thats what the real issue was.no. you have seen an error message? then you must have entered the url to the validate.php script manually or followed an unofficial link! even after the "error" was resolved (if trying to open a locked door may be called an error at all) the login-page still linked to the countdown-page. do not blame anyone but yourself for this one.
3). you offered only ONE FTP site on earth to let over 1,000 users try to download the files at once...actually i too _feared_ that that might cause problems, but all times i downloaded parts of the toolset i managed to max my 6 mbit connection by using free download manager (fdm). if you used simple, browserbased ftp - perhaps even without resuming - you might have run into problems or got slow downloads (sometimes the speed of a single connection was as low as 15 kb/s); but then using unsuitable software is your fault, not ataris. did you really think you could empty a swimming pool full of bathing guest using your soup spoon?
sorry. your mood is understandable and some of your points are just right, but others are not. let's stick to the facts and stay calm, no one is going to listen to only halfbaken arguments brought forward in such an aggressive tone.
you ask professionality from atari? may i ask the same of you?
please read the announcements made by tenebra and atari officials in this forum, and their comments in other threads about similar issues.
You refered to it as *free* numerous times there. It isnt for everyone due to an additional cost to purchase for some. But even without this cost you still were told you had to preorder to get this...and doing something to get something is not getting something free. Same as the buy one get one free deals...you still have to buy 1 lol...the other is not *free* .
Ah, yeah sorry. I mean free like: you get free bonus if you preorder limited edition (what is more expensive). I did not mean it is freeware and meaned for everyone to download.
Edit: allso looks like it is not free for every shop where you can preorder limited edition either.. ..but anyway.
*still waiting longer before trying to start downloading anything, should go pretty fast when I start*
So I'm wondering, as it seems to not yet be answered anywhere... and I was under the impression that would've happened somewhere after 17:00 GMT+1 yesterday (but it's ofcourse possible that I misunderstood something somewhere there).
The "beta" is the "final" or "presell/pre-order" version?
A simple answer from official sources, please. Thank you.
I can agree that the overall handling of this ordeal has been pretty messy on Atari's part. The trouble with the counter, the release date and all that I can understand and be sympathetic with, definitely. However, the fact that Atari has made quite a few customers to pay in advance - or even pay more to be able to get access to the toolset a month before launch, and then when the deal has been made, allow anyone to get access to it - is really bad. I for one would have saved my hard-earned cash for November and wait for the reviews, if I didn't think the monetary sacrifice was necessary to obtain the much desired NWN2 toolset.
The second thing is what many customers see as dodgy excuses: I don't know about the truth behind power outage or other details, and I'd rather take Atari's word for it if I can, but I find it hard to believe that the official download differs any at all from the "illegit" version, despite that Atari would have us believe the latter was a beta version. I have tried both and I can percieve no difference whatsoever and that leads me to believe the claim was merely an attempt to smooth things over with the annoyed pre-order customers. Now the community's response to this ordeal was at best pathetic, but the mistakes made does not become a company of Atari's size and responsibilities either.
Please keep the language clean, however harsh the comments. This forum is open to all ages and kids shouldn't have to read less than clean language. Tenebra
BlueHooHoo
04-10-2006, 11:58
However, the fact that Atari has made quite a few customers to pay in advance - or even pay more to be able to get access to the toolset a month before launch, and then when the deal has been made, allow anyone to get access to it - is really bad.
I didn't think anyone had to pay 'extra' for the Tool-set? Any payment now is redeemable against the purchase of the full final version isn’t it? Simply take back your pre-order disk, to the store, and get it refunded when the game’s released; at least that’s the way I understand it. :salut2:
I didn't think anyone had to pay 'extra' for the Tool-set? Any payment now is redeemable against the purchase of the full final version isn’t it? Simply take back your pre-order disk, to the store, and get it refunded when the game’s released; at least that’s the way I understand it. :salut2:
It has been stated more than several times now that this is not the case for germany (and maybe other places as well). So until it's proven that it changed there it should be safe to say that there are people that had to pay for it.
[edit]
How come I feel like a parrot?
roadrash
04-10-2006, 13:14
1) you should have never used the countdown timer based on the persons LOCAL clock. as many had much issues with that...with it looping endlessly which could have been avoided if you had tested it before hand.
1) Yup, this is something we could definitely have done better.
2). the problem the first night is not due to a "power outtage" but due to poorly done sql script and database management. the problem is you didnt give the right permissions or what to the database it seems and thats what the real issue was. othewrise if it was the power outage tthat was the problem it would read a "page not found " error. which would mean severs were down.
2) There were several factors contributing toward the first nights lack of availability, and a power outage was one of them... Unfortunately, Im not able to go into these at the moment, due to lack of time and due to the fact that I don't have the complete picture myself as yet, so anything I said would be pure speculation at this point.
3). you offered only ONE FTP site on earth to let over 1,000 users try to download the files at once... this was very poor doings...any sane person would have known that if you had a ton of people trying to download files from one location only that it would cause problems
3) Incorrect. We perform load balancing across several servers behind a single address.
4) the keycodes are worthleses: the ftp site is unrestricted anyone can download the files if they know the site location... a poster on the offical nw2 site forums stated that "well we shoudnt download it even if its avaible" what the heck does that mean? sure we can....its an atari site and its basically open to the public ..you cant blame it on the users the security of your website is YOUR responciblity ...having it avaible for EVERYONE to download regardless of the keycode or not in the ftp is very very unprofessonal.
4) The fact that someone posted a username and password on a forum was not our fault. The fact that it was not shut off sooner is something that we can only apologise for.
now then can you explain those issues? point by point? no of course n
the fact that you offer a small little paragraph responce instead of a well written longer post shows again that you really dont seem to care ...its all excuses.
It is very difficult to write a long winded post when you are in the middle of trying to sort out issues, and may not have the complete picture yourself. We have to prioritise fixing problems above anything else.
At the end of the day, we are trying to keep everyone informed as to what is happening. Its not in our interests to upset people, and we figured that people would rather know that we are aware of problems and fixing them , as opposed to just ignoring them.
tenebra_uk
04-10-2006, 14:12
Just to keep things into perspective, I hope that you guys don't expect something on the lines of "A messed up and made a mistake, B wasn't available to fix it, C didn't have a clue on how to fix it and D messed it up even more in an attempt to fix it. All of the involved have been fired".
I hope that your objective is seeking reassurance that Atari is committed to their customers and is aiming to offer a good service and that you're not driven by a thirst for blood.
Roadrash will surely provide you with all the information he can when he has a better picture, just please let's maintain a constructive attitude.
about "free", "refundable" or "paid":
i know, this is _not_ the right place to talk about it, as it is a problem seemingly only gemans have. but as there is not even a nwn2-section at the german forum and ataris german website is down for a while now quite a few germans have come to this (uk) part of the forum. so the issue has been brought up in discussion every once in a while and always leads to misunderstandings.
i try to draw a picture for you:
in germany the so called "preorder pack" was sold in quite a lot of places, amazon.de (and other online-shops) had it, and it was also available at mediamarkt and saturn (large-scale electrics and electronics warehouses - actually don't know the fitting word for it). everyone could buy these boxes without preordering nwn2, for 4€ to 10€. when asked whether the price would be refunded on buying the full game they answered anything from "don't think so" to "of course not!" or said one had to ask atari for repaying... until now it is not clear if this is again just "misinformation" or if we actually are treated different from all other buyers around the world.
inside the boxes are the code (printed on a card) and a disc containing artwork and documents that were officially available on the internet.
right now it looks as if we spent our money for "exclusive access to the toolset and the merchants friend ability". but as you can't call the access to the toolsset "exclusive" anymore and it seems unlikely that atari is going to keep the merchants-friend exclusive as well we are facing the question "what did we pay for?"
i hope atari germany will at last come up and set things clear, e.g. make sure that germans as well will get the preorder "fee" subtracted from the price of the full game.
so now you may understand why the germans all get upset whenever anyone is talking about a "free toolset" :-)
roadrash
04-10-2006, 15:58
about "free", "refundable" or "paid":
i know, this is _not_ the right place to talk about it, as it is a problem seemingly only gemans have. but as there is not even a nwn2-section at the german forum and ataris german website is down for a while now quite a few germans have come to this (uk) part of the forum. so the issue has been brought up in discussion every once in a while and always leads to misunderstandings.
i try to draw a picture for you:
in germany the so called "preorder pack" was sold in quite a lot of places, amazon.de (and other online-shops) had it, and it was also available at mediamarkt and saturn (large-scale electrics and electronics warehouses - actually don't know the fitting word for it). everyone could buy these boxes without preordering nwn2, for 4€ to 10€. when asked whether the price would be refunded on buying the full game they answered anything from "don't think so" to "of course not!" or said one had to ask atari for repaying... until now it is not clear if this is again just "misinformation" or if we actually are treated different from all other buyers around the world.
inside the boxes are the code (printed on a card) and a disc containing artwork and documents that were officially available on the internet.
right now it looks as if we spent our money for "exclusive access to the toolset and the merchants friend ability". but as you can't call the access to the toolsset "exclusive" anymore and it seems unlikely that atari is going to keep the merchants-friend exclusive as well we are facing the question "what did we pay for?"
i hope atari germany will at last come up and set things clear, e.g. make sure that germans as well will get the preorder "fee" subtracted from the price of the full game.
so now you may understand why the germans all get upset whenever anyone is talking about a "free toolset" :-)
I cant really comment on what sort of deals the German offices have done, as I simply dont know.. I will, however, try and find out who does know and get some information on the UK forum.
The German office has just moved premesis, so there are bound to be a thousand and one things for them to do at the moment.
As soon as I have any information, Ill post it here.
of course, i didn't expect you to do their job :)
thank you in advance for any information you could give!
BlackHawk01x
04-10-2006, 17:06
Have to second tanita's words:
Thanks alot for trying to get informations.
roadrash
04-10-2006, 18:04
OK, Ive had some feedback from our German office..
Due to the fact that theyve just moved offices (if youve ever done this yourself, you will know how hellish it is!), its taken them a little to get back on top of things, but there should be a NWN2 zone coming to the German forums soon.
Im still trying to get clarification of the situation regarding whether or not the price paid for the toolkit is redeemable against the purchase of the full game. Once I know one way or the other, Ill post back.
roadrash
04-10-2006, 21:44
The threads have got a little messed up, so Im not actually sure where best to post this... but Ill stick it in here, and if necessary it can be copied elsewhere..
To clarify the position of the downloadable toolset..:
It is a "Near Final Beta", in as much as it is *not* exactly the same version as will go out with the box set. It is, however, an update on the last beta that the beta testers were testing... if that makes sense..!
It possible that some issues may arise in the toolset between now and when the game ships, as nothing has been officially finalised yet. We hope not, but we can guarantee it.
Hope that clears things up a bit..
Im still trying to get clarification of the situation regarding whether or not the price paid for the toolkit is redeemable against the purchase of the full game. Once I know one way or the other, Ill post back.
fine! :)
to me, that's the last point still open regarding the toolset and the preorder process. AdminGER finally reappeared on german forums after about a month of silence and they actually opened a nwn2-subforum there, so i also posted my questions and concerns there. but as i posted that same question more than a month ago and didn't get any response, and as AdminGER's statement (about the toolset beeing redeemable "of course") was edited out of his posting in the meantime i am not too confident to get an answer this time.
so i am glad that _you_ are supporting us, although we are just guests at your uk forums. thank you for that hospitality! :)
tenebra_uk
04-10-2006, 23:32
Glad to hear the poking has worked ;)
Atari Germany said they'll be more proactive once they're settled, so watch this (or maybe that is more appropriate :mefiant: ) space.
We'd be sad to see you go though :(
We'd be sad to see you go though :(
ah, don't start the party right now... there still is the full game to come, and until we've got that one in our hands i'll linger here as well; not just out of habit, but because this ist the _only_ nwn2-forum so far where i found a dec(ad)ent mod and some straight answers :p
To clarify the position of the downloadable toolset..:
It is a "Near Final Beta", in as much as it is *not* exactly the same version as will go out with the box set. It is, however, an update on the last beta that the beta testers were testing... if that makes sense..!
I think that sortof answered my question, thank you.
Not really the answer, but I feel this mentions we don't need to expect an updated version before the game comes out, and the game shouldn't get another delay (unless more bugs surface).
So we should still be able to get it the 3rd (which was appearantly our release date already when the rest of the world had it on the 1st).
I need some clarification on wether or not this code i bought, and spent the time to hunt down is not worthless. This is the last item of interest i need before i can lay the toolset issue to rest in my own mind. Will the code get us anything exclusive? (like the merchants friend) or will that be available to all too? If we are to get some exclusive content as origonally thought will you be adding some better security to prevent it being distributed to everyone?
Regards, David.
roadrash
05-10-2006, 20:07
I need some clarification on wether or not this code i bought, and spent the time to hunt down is not worthless. This is the last item of interest i need before i can lay the toolset issue to rest in my own mind. Will the code get us anything exclusive? (like the merchants friend) or will that be available to all too? If we are to get some exclusive content as origonally thought will you be adding some better security to prevent it being distributed to everyone?
The Merchants friend will only be available to those that have a pre-order code.
We are making sure that there will be extensive testing of the system in order to prevent people downloading this without the preorder code.
Hope this cheers you up some!
The Merchants friend will only be available to those that have a pre-order code. [...] Hope this cheers you up some!uhm, not really, as i do not care about that feature, actually i only preordered because of the toolset.
but then ... i do not need to be cheered up, i'm quite fine with the toolset :)
Yup ok i'm happier now, past is past. its time to enjoy what we do have. Been playing around with the toolset and its great due to its massive functionality and Microsoft Visual Express layout. Thanks for all your support.
:atari: 10sur10
Regards David.
uhm, not really, as i do not care about that feature, actually i only preordered because of the toolset.
but then ... i do not need to be cheered up, i'm quite fine with the toolset :)
Same here...
I read posts which lead me to assume there are a lot of armorparts and whatnot not in the toolset we can have yet (and read official word there were a lot more than in NwN a while ago). Maybe when things are more under control there can be optional pre-toolset expansions available for us who pre-bought?
Same here...
I read posts which lead me to assume there are a lot of armorparts and whatnot not in the toolset we can have yet (and read official word there were a lot more than in NwN a while ago). Maybe when things are more under control there can be optional pre-toolset expansions available for us who pre-bought?
Are you talking about the fact that there are entries in the 2da files, with no corresponding objects?
This is more likely due to the fact that some of the .2da files were copied from NWN1, and some entries were just not removed.
Anyhow - you will have more content soon. We are busy reverse-engineering the file formats, writing export/import tools and it looks like there will be quite a bit of custom content ready by the time the game ships.
I'm more referring to
Pieces of Armor
Pieces of armor … it's huge. There are many, many, many pieces of armor. Much more than in NWN1. And they look amazing. The armor was one of the most impressive things I saw.gotten from here (http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1144).
The Merchants friend will only be available to those that have a pre-order code.
We are making sure that there will be extensive testing of the system in order to prevent people downloading this without the preorder code.
Hope this cheers you up some!
sorry to come back to this now, but i have to tell you that all your "extensive testing" has been in vain. every one can use the "merchants friend" by typing a simple combination of commands within the game.
of course this is cheating, and you'll tell me that it wasn't meant to be done this way... but let's face the fact: atari hasn't done _anything_ to bind the preorder-bonus "merchants friend" to the preorder-code. why not use the same mechanism that protects the game itself by cd-code?
please don't tell me this would have been too expensive - i've paid 1/5 of the full price in addition to get this "exclusive feature" (you remember? no redeeming in germany).
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