The attitude of members in TDU forum (good or bad?)

[TheLastInLine]

I decide to make this thread 'cos some minutes ago one msg of mine was deleted (fairly) as off-topic.
Anyway, I'd like to comment that sometimes in the forum there are some people who are reasonably angry or mad with the way we (PC Users) are treated by Atari. I understand their anger but I can't explain personal attacks by the usage of "bad" words who are possible to be read by children as well.
Secondly I'd like mention that the attitude of Kalniel in the last couple of weeks is not proper neither for a member nor for a mod for any forum all over the world.
Some posts are really quarrelsome and aggressive. The top was the expression that some of us users "got to have our heads examine". This is acceptable only as personal attack. And I'm sure that in our real daily life expressions like the one mentioned before, if told face to face could occur in very bad results! madred:
I have to say that never before have the smallest problem with Kal, but in my life, I am very fair. So, I was fed up by the absence of any apology.

And some minutes of the posting of this thread as u see it was transfered although it has to do with TDU ONLY and not for the whole Internet. Is this dictatorship or not?

[kalniel]

I can assure you that none of my comments were meant as a personal attack - if you read the context that should be clear but in case it isn't let me repeat that - I'm not personally attacking any single forum member. :)

[TheLastInLine]

I can assure you that none of my comments were meant as a personal attack - if you read the context that should be clear but in case it isn't let me repeat that - I'm not personally attacking any single forum member. :)

I read very carefully what was before your post, as well as some improper answers to it. But just in friendly mood, I'd like to ask you who you think you are to tell me to examine my head? We have any close relationship, do we? I don't like the way Atari treat us either. But as long as I don't use any "bad" language or expressions, why do u think u have the right to do so?

[kalniel]

I wasn't using any bad language or telling you to examine your head. :hin:

And in response to your edit, no, moving a thread to its correct location is not dictatorship.. I'm very surprised you'd suggest it was.

[tenebra]

The forum shouldn't be used to complain about personal issues with another forum member (or moderator). I would suggest that private problems are discussed privately or dealt with the aid of a moderator.

[TheLastInLine]

I wasn't using any bad language or telling you to examine your head. :hin:

And in response to your edit, no, moving a thread to its correct location is not dictatorship.. I'm very surprised you'd suggest it was.

First. U used plural. So anyone who was agreeing with that user (I agreed as well) make the plural! And so if someone disagree with u, doesn't mean he has to examine his head.

Personally I don't accept it, it shows no respect to me and I demand an apology.

And of course this is not the place this thread is meant to be as it has to do with Members Of TDU Community. It's so clear. So there is no need to play a bad surprising role.

[TheLastInLine]

The forum shouldn't be used to complain about personal issues with another forum member (or moderator). I would suggest that private problems are discussed privately or dealt with the aid of a moderator.

Sorry for double posting. Tenebra, this is not something private. It has to do with the attitude of many members in TDU Community. In the last few weeks everything went out of control. Nevertheless we all have to respect each other and avoid the usage of improper expressions inside our posts, whoever or whatever we are.

[kalniel]

First. U used plural. So anyone who was agreeing with that user (I agreed as well) make the plural! And so if someone disagree with u, doesn't mean he has to examine his head.

Personally I don't accept it, it shows no respect to me and I demand an apology. You have misunderstood me I think. It's the equivalent of saying 'if you think the moon is made of cheese then you need your head examining!'

And of course this is not the place this thread is meant to be as it has to do with Members Of TDU Community. It's so clear. So there is no need to play a bad surprising role.I'm afraid you're wrong. The TDU section of the forums is for talking about the game only.

As per Tenebra's clarification please do PM me to discuss this further if you'd like.

[tenebra]

TheLastInLine, it appears to be very much a private issue. As I am ultimately responsible for this forum, I would appreciate if my suggestions were taken into consideration. Should the matter escalate, I'll be happy to be involved.

Kalniel have always proven to be a very reasonable, intelligent and respectful person. Taking a vaguely, generical, mildly flippant comment (although that's not my view, I find it completely inoffensive) personally when these guys on the front line are consistently personally abused seems to be rather extreme.

[TheLastInLine]

TheLastInLine, it appears to be very much a private issue. As I am ultimately responsible for this forum, I would appreciate if my suggestions were taken into consideration. Should the matter escalate, I'll be happy to be involved.

Kalniel have always proven to be a very reasonable, intelligent and respectful person. Taking a vaguely, generical, mildly flippant comment (although that's not my view, I find it completely inoffensive) personally when these guys on the front line are consistently personally abused seems to be rather extreme.

I'm sure u know that all people are not the same (It would be very boring). I have extreme reactions in everything I do in my life. That's me, I can't change. In other words I do everything in the max. Work, love, hate, having fun, even playing a game. I "extreme" respect every human life unless something happens against me. I have never give the smallest motive to anyone I met on the net, in the last about 14 years I use it, to tell a vaguely, generic, mildly flippant comment to me.
Anyway, I don't expect to hear an apology. Who is Scorpio? :) Do not waste anymore of your time to me. Just help the guys out there. I personally wrote down my personal opinion. Think it's clear. After today's incident I don't think I want to write again in this forum. I feel very sorry 'cos sometimes there were interesting conversations, funny pics (with me in the bushes, loosin' weight!), loved to help people who had same router and problems with me and many many more. Now I'd rather be an observant and nothing more.

Have a very good time. :salut2:

[randomus_r]

I don't see how Tenebra and kalniel see it as a private matter, and I think this view is held by many in the TDU forums. (Which I've pointed out many times to kalniel who promptly tells me it's just me and only me).

But it appears we've lost another great member of our community to the fact that moderators are always right and no matter what you say will change that. We wouldn't mind if the moderators took our comments as constructive criticism occasionally instead of immediately telling us we are in the wrong. Not everyone's perfect, and I think of all people the moderators should understand this.

EDIT: I also think that kalniel's comment about 'having out head's examined' what slightly out of line, it may have been a joke but wasn't relayed too well. I also don't think the original was a totally stupid either, many game sequels are released annually.

[tenebra]

I'm going to have my take of the attitude of (some) members in the TDU forum.

I sometimes find that there is no appreciation that people only see a fraction of the work involved in producing and releasing games. Some people think that a post (or a dozen, or even a thread) about a bug will be automatically picked up by someone who'll be able to log it, a patch produced by one developer and released the same day. I don't see any understanding of the support process which involves a number of customer reports to the correct channel (ie Tech Support, not the forum, and only several reports would result in a bug log), QA having to collect info on all customers' rigs, testing to source and replicate the rigs, then replicate the bugs, pass it back to QA which will pass it to development, development to work on a fix, fix back to QA, then back to testing, then to the brand managers who, as it happens, don't have unlimited funds to release dozens of patches (which costs money).
Why don't people from Tech Support read the forum, I hear you ask. Because they're busy answering customers' emails and phonecalls, logging bugs, liaising with QA and producers and the usual things you'd expect Tech Support people do, which don't involve reading a community forum.
Why don't I do it, I hear you say. Because even if my role was fully focussed on the forums, I would have to spend 8 hours a day just reading all posts and it wouldn't leave me enough time to even log bugs, let alone answer your queries, let alone ensuring that the community, as a whole, functions.
I'm deliberately leaving out other departments out such as certification and legal as I know you'd completely blank them anyway. I'll just quickly remind you that a publisher (or a developer) is not a happy, autonomous island that can produce and release anything without interacting with the world, which involves other companies, legislations and a whole complex net.

Sadly, nobody seems to have even noticed that Atari doesn't waste hundreds of thousands of pounds in fancy advertising and focus the cash in game development and support instead. Do you have a problem with Dora the Explorer? Tech Support will be there. Roller Coaster Tycoon 1? Same. Driver 1? They'll still be there. Try it for yourself, then we'll talk about support.

I must admit I haven't got a clue of what you are complaining about now - sequels released annually? So what you are after is a Primark of the gaming industry, and no interest whatsoever in innovation and creativity? Yes, there are indeed publishers who provide this kind of products, others don't, as the emphasis is more on delivering something "better", not just the same game with less bugs and different colours. It took Atari 7 years to come close to the release of the new installment of Alone in the Dark. Just imagine how much more cash they would have made if they'd carried on dishing out the same story, with similar technology and a different location every year instead of waiting so long to deliver a more enjoyable experience.

The customer is the king. You have the money and the freedom to choose what you'll spend your hard earned cash. Some would rather shop in Primark, some will have go for quality rather than quantity.
You are also king to choose what forum you get involved with - as much as I love the interaction with people playing Atari games, I would never force them to help me improving our products.

[randomus_r]

Tenny, we're not complaining about customer support, nor the lack of patches or communication from Atari. What we have a problem with is the attitude of the members in the TDU forum (which is frankly horrible from the majority of people), and the attitude the moderators in the TDU forum, specifically kal's comment about the user's needing there heads examining (which we still haven't received an apology for).

Now it appears Tenebra is not fully understanding the situation, so I'll clear it up a little.

This post was made by wolfsrain in The 'Official' Patch and Car Pack Discussion Thread.
There are articles on gameindurstry.biz and eurogamer.net about how ATARI will enforce some money making brands(TDU was named, along with Alone in the Dark and DND titles)
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=90873
There are some quotes given by the ATARI manager about that the company going more towards the casual gaming and less towards the games that are requiring large amounts of money to be done.
Sorry, kalniel, you've asked for a link and you have one now. I will try and find also the article from gameindustry.biz.

"We are scheduling regular releases for those [Alone in the Dark, Test Drive, Dungeons & Dragons] best sellers, but we will not position ourselves exclusively in this segment aimed at experienced gamers, which requires larger investments where competition from majors is increasingly fierce and where development cycles are getting longer, actually too long for us," admitted Leleu.
That's the quote that actually is of interest to us.
(I think this may have been edited)

Kalniel replied with this.
My word.. if you think that is proof that Atari are going to release a new TDU game every year instead of a patch then you need your head examining!
(also may have been edited, as TheLastInLine (and I) believe there was plural)


Hence the problem, quite a few people found this offensive.


The customer is the king. You have the money and the freedom to choose what you'll spend your hard earned cash. Some would rather shop in Primark, some will have go for quality rather than quantity.

Yes, but we haven't exactly got quality, have we? TDU was delayed before its release, and we got an extremely buggy game (and don't tell me some are hardware/software related, many are simply faults with the game).

Then we received a patch, also delayed. Which, as far as I can make out, only improved gameplay a little for lower end systems and took the sound away when we look behind on certain cars in certain views.

Official list of what the patch fixed:

• Anti Cheat measures implemented throughout the game - worked for a while, but now useless. Unfortunately that can't be helped.

• Fully reworked save system. Profiles can not be corrupted anymore (note: players will not be able to load a corrupted savegame.) Didn't work, reports of corrupted savegames under the 1.66A patch are still happening, albeit less common.

• Fixed crashes and improved stability everywhere in the game. No signs of improvement.

• Fixed bug when a 'New game' is created with an online profile (remanent information). Dunno 'bout this one.

• Improved online code (better management of lobbies, optimization of freeride sessions, “isolate” feature of the free ride improved). Nope, servers still bad as ever, clubs still don't work.


• Fixed various bugs in drive in (linked with scores and cars). Nope, still problems

• Fixed traffic cars flying around. Nope, still happens.

• Fixed bug on multi-threading code. Dunno.

• Fixed some crackering/stuttering sound issues. Not for all.

• Fixed bugs in photo mode. Nope, they still happen.

• Fixed some corruption on car graphics. Wasn't aware there was any.

• Improved volume balance and bass power. Indeed. You just brought along new audio bugs.


So it appears that waiting a long time for quality isn't always the best thing to do, is it?

You are also king to choose what forum you get involved with - as much as I love the interaction with people playing Atari games, I would never force them to help me improving our products.

But you don't have to force them. Most of the users here would be over the moon if we actually had contact with the developers, had an actual official way to report bugs, had updates with progress. Even if everythings going wrong, the update is going to be late, tell us why! Don't leave it 'til the last minute and then go 'Oh, it's going to be late'.

[Glockerz]

I agree with Random 100%. I am angry at atari. If I was older, I would get a lawyer and sue for breaching the "Fair Trading Act".

[tenebra]

randomus_r, I find it hard to believe that anybody can possibly take offence for Kalniel's remark. And beside the inoffensive tone (I won't even attempt to compare it with the tone used by other members - or yours, occasionally here and less occasionally in other forums which I had the displeasure to see), Kal made a very intelligent remark as it seems some people have completely misread the interview. "Regular releases" doesn't mean "yearly releases". I told you, there are plenty Primark games if you want them, Atari doesn't work like that.

Are you really suggesting that developers should be in direct contact with gamers? Are you kidding, right? Just for a minute, imagine you're a bit older and a developer, working 8-9-10-12 hours solid, under pressure, and on top of your workload you find hundreds of random emails in your inbox, half (or more) of which are from people who don't even know what a graphics card is. How very productive.

If you need to report a bug, you know the route uk.support@atari.com.

[randomus_r]

randomus_r, I find it hard to believe that anybody can possibly take offence for Kalniel's remark. And beside the inoffensive tone (I won't even attempt to compare it with the tone used by other members - or yours, occasionally here and less occasionally in other forums which I had the displeasure to see), Kal made a very intelligent remark as it seems some people have completely misread the interview. "Regular releases" doesn't mean "yearly releases". I told you, there are plenty Primark games if you want them, Atari doesn't work like that.

You may find it hard to believe, but it appears people did. Whether he meant it in an offensive way (which he didn't) or not, certain people evidently took offence to it, so surely a sign of respect would be an apology?

Also, what I say and do on other forums is totally irrelevant. You may have read this, and will therefore know what I think of certain.... procedures that are carried out here. Yet you shouldn't let that influence what you do and say here, that is a different matter. Now I have no personal problems with any of the official forum staff, I must say I do like yourself and kalniel (and all the other mods for that matter :)), but it's some of the actions taken against members I dislike.

It appears that kal is the only one who mentioned 'yearly releases', I don't see anyone mentioning that in any other post. Even so, I don't see how you can not call TDU a 'Primark' game. You simply cannot say TDU is a fully working game. The are many bugs with it, some small which most will live with, but some are massive, limiting gameplay and not allowing you to fully complete the game unless you happen to have four legal copies of TDU on four computers connected over LAN and four players. Even certain 'Primark' games would have had a fix by now, so in exactly what way do Atari work?

Are you really suggesting that developers should be in direct contact with gamers? Are you kidding, right? Just for a minute, imagine you're a bit older and a developer, working 8-9-10-12 hours solid, under pressure, and on top of your workload you find hundreds of random emails in your inbox, half (or more) of which are from people who don't even know what a graphics card is. How very productive.

I know how it feels to work that many hours, I've done it. Anyways, I'm not saying they should have direct contact with the developers, I'm saying it would be a good idea for them to post in the forum (in official threads, I'm not asking them to actually get involved) telling us how development is going. It doesn't take long. Maybe you could even relay that info for us?

[kalniel]

It appears that kal is the only one who mentioned 'yearly releases', I don't see anyone mentioning that in any other post.
If you're going to take issue with something I post, at least have the decency to read it correctly in context (you already replied to it, so I assumed you had at the time).

(bolding mine)
looks like Atari is turning into EA..release a "new" version every year
Where have you heard this information? Can you post a link
"We are scheduling regular releases for those [Alone in the Dark, Test Drive, Dungeons & Dragons] best sellers, but we will not position ourselves exclusively in this segment aimed at experienced gamers, which requires larger investments where competition from majors is increasingly fierce and where development cycles are getting longer,
My word.. if you think that is proof that Atari are going to release a new TDU game every year instead of a patch then you need your head examining!

[tenebra]

You may find it hard to believe, but it appears people did. Whether he meant it in an offensive way (which he didn't) or not, certain people evidently took offence to it, so surely a sign of respect would be an apology?
No, I don't think that there should be an apology for such an inoffensive remark.

Also, what I say and do on other forums is totally irrelevant. You may have read this, and will therefore know what I think of certain.... procedures that are carried out here. Yet you shouldn't let that influence what you do and say here, that is a different matter.
It gives me a clear idea of your attitude in this forum. You will admit you haven't been exactly a friendly and constructive member of the community for the past couple of months. Remember the forum rules, access to this forum is a privilege, not a right.

Now I have no personal problems with any of the official forum staff, I must say I do like yourself and kalniel (and all the other mods for that matter :)), but it's some of the actions taken against members I dislike.
*cough* I think I said I read your posts in other forums, let's leave it there, shall we? Nobody chained you to this forum, you're free to move on if you wish, I will not accept continued nagging and provocation.

I know how it feels to work that many hours, I've done it. Anyways, I'm not saying they should have direct contact with the developers, I'm saying it would be a good idea for them to post in the forum (in official threads, I'm not asking them to actually get involved) telling us how development is going. It doesn't take long. Maybe you could even relay that info for us?
I thought you were 15? With all respect, there is a fair difference between studying (or spending time on hobbies) and working.
The developers are entitled to do their job, which is developing, not letting me know what they are doing. Yes, it does take long when you have a job to do.

[randomus_r]

No, I don't think that there should be an apology for such an inoffensive remark.

I don't care whether you think it's an inoffensive remark or not! People found it offensive, therefore an apology is needed. Many times I've apologised for comments that weren't meant as offence, but were taken that way.


It gives me a clear idea of your attitude in this forum. You will admit you haven't been exactly a friendly and constructive member of the community for the past couple of months. Remember the forum rules, access to this forum is a privilege, not a right.

Yes, I will admit that. Because I'm sick and tired an fed up of being constantly told what to do. The forum has changed, and certainly not for the better.


*cough* I think I said I read your posts in other forums, let's leave it there, shall we? Nobody chained you to this forum, you're free to move on if you wish, I will not accept continued nagging and provocation.

You can't have read all of them, as I believe that pretty much everywhere I've complained I've tried to make clear the fact I don't dislike the person in question. I may also have cleared it up in threads/forums that you are not permitted to see being a guest.


I thought you were 15? With all respect, there is a fair difference between studying (or spending time on hobbies) and working.
The developers are entitled to do their job, which is developing, not letting me know what they are doing. Yes, it does take long when you have a job to do.

Yes, I am 15. But I have worked those hours before. Not studying, not spending time on hobbies, although it was something I do enjoy, but I assume many of the developers enjoy their jobs as well. Even so, they should try to make time. It's called customer relations.

[tenebra]

I don't care whether you think it's an inoffensive remark or not! People found it offensive, therefore an apology is needed. Many times I've apologised for comments that weren't meant as offence, but were taken that way.
I thought I'd been clear enough.

Yes, I will admit that. Because I'm sick and tired an fed up of being constantly told what to do. The forum has changed, and certainly not for the better.
The door is open, randomus_r, not just for coming in but also going out.

You can't have read all of them, as I believe that pretty much everywhere I've complained I've tried to make clear the fact I don't dislike the person in question. I may also have cleared it up in threads/forums that you are not permitted to see being a guest.
I've read enough insults dotted with pretty unpleasant swearing, it actually got me thinking about your presence here. Don't assume I'm a guest outside this place...

Yes, I am 15. But I have worked those hours before. Not studying, not spending time on hobbies, although it was something I do enjoy, but I assume many of the developers enjoy their jobs as well. Even so, they should try to make time. It's called customer relations.
Customer relations is not listed in a developer's job specs.

[randomus_r]

I thought I'd been clear enough.

Okay, so no apology. I get it rolleyesa


The door is open, randomus_r, not just for coming in but also going out.

I thought it was drafty in here, would you like me to close it on the way out?


I've read enough insults dotted with pretty unpleasant swearing, it actually got me thinking about your presence here. Don't assume I'm a guest outside this place...

I know there are forums where you aren't a member, where I have posted, where I have made the comments. Some of them may have been harsh, yes. Did I actually mean it? Highly unlikely.


Customer relations is not listed in a developer's job specs.

No, but a major corporation like Atari should have some.

[THUNDERDOMEFXX]

Hello, Im not sure if this applies to in game when playing TDU. So here i go.

I like to drive by my self sometimes, & ill get rammed off the road for no reason, Now i just simply leave it and continue cruising, But if they come around again, I then give chase till they come to a corner by a steep hill then ramm them down it, HA HA HA lol. Wait for them while they can't figure out how to reset there car. ROFL. But i think i ended up in an argument in these forums about how i made money quickly. I soon ended that little spiff of nonsense. But i do find other players of TDU & in the forums are really helpful & i thank you for your patience, Even when i first started playing my fav game.

Thunder.